RE: Re: Static caravan in garden

2017-06-19T11:10:44Z

You query seems very different to the old orginal post as your mobile home is NOT associated with the garden of an existing house, resticted by neighbours or assocaied with construction, ancillary use or letting, a new subject would probably get a much clearer response on how planners might respond .

Some of the advise above is relevant, you should for example have a copy of the certifcate and check what it was for and what is says and how big the red line area was.

Your unit can be replaced with same size that conforms with the definition of a caravan, facilities can also be upgraded but usuing more or different land should go via a planning application unless you want to risk doing the work and probably getting a certifcate some years hence.

From the councils point of view they will probably not want a second site adajcent to the one you have ie 2 overall.but might be pragmatic if the application clearly only extends a reasonable degree, is just replacing / upgrading the caravan and NOT creating a second site. Removing the existing old unit should be a sensible part of the application to head off any concerns about.creating yet another mess in a rural location.

They dont have to agree with your view that more land used is the most sensible and best option but should be pursuaded by reason and evidence.

RE: Re: Static caravan in garden

2017-06-14T17:17:17Z

Hello Michael,

I have read through this thread and it has been very helpful. My issue is I think an odd one. I have a lawful development certificate for my current mobile home, it also covers an area with nothing on it, this was decided by the council from ordnance survey plans. At the time this was no problem. I now want to replace my old mobile home with a new one, however the best and most sensible place to put it is just outside the current lawful development area. I am happy to extend the area, or apply for planning, however I need to move quickly to be in a new home by winter. The old one was damaged in a recent storm and is now really beyond economical repair. The council have not been very helpful in this matter and I am worried that if we just place a new mobile home it will cause issues. We have no neighbours and have lived here happily and peacefully for 30 years.

Many thanks in advance for any help or advice.

Jane

RE: Re: Static caravan in garden

2017-03-30T11:26:47Z

Sean Buckingham:

Hello Michael - Apologies if this has already been answered prior or I have asked in the wrong place - but would this still be the same if the property were Grade 2 Listed. We live in a very small thatched cottage and our 2 children are growing up - we need some space and thought of buying a static caravan so the children can potentially sleep and play in thier own space, and even possibly live there in the future while saving for a deposit on thier own mortgage. The caravan would not be visable from any other properties and we live in a very rural setting - our only neighbours would be a livery and our property is shielded by tall hedgerows and trees. We would of plocated the static home / caravan as far away from the house as possible and leave at least 2m from any boundary. Many Thanks in advance Sean

Hi Sean. The fact that you are in a Grade 2 listed building is irrelevent to the assessment as to whether any development will take place! I one got a LDC for the siting of a caravan in the curtilage of a Grade 2* listed building. Provided that the caravan is not used independently of the main house planning permission will not be required. Regards. Mike Hyde.

RE: Re: Static caravan in garden

2017-03-30T10:54:01Z

Hello Michael - Apologies if this has already been answered prior or I have asked in the wrong place - but would this still be the same if the property were Grade 2 Listed. We live in a very small thatched cottage and our 2 children are growing up - we need some space and thought of buying a static caravan so the children can potentially sleep and play in thier own space, and even possibly live there in the future while saving for a deposit on thier own mortgage. The caravan would not be visable from any other properties and we live in a very rural setting - our only neighbours would be a livery and our property is shielded by tall hedgerows and trees. We would of plocated the static home / caravan as far away from the house as possible and leave at least 2m from any boundary. Many Thanks in advance Sean

RE: Re: Static caravan in garden

2015-08-17T10:37:16Z

Interestingly (?!) I just rang my local council to ask if I'd need planning permission to site a mobile/satic caravan whilst renovations and extension were being carried out on the property I've just bought. Their response was that if I was undertaking the majority of work myself then no planning permission required, but if builders were doing the majoirity of the work then yes! - odd??

RE: Re: Static caravan in garden

2015-08-17T09:39:47Z

Yes you would need planning permission.

I would check out first what planning policies if any specifically apply to this site. These will be set out in the Local Plan. This government had a real downer on garden development and infill because it was termed rightly or wrongly as "town cramming". As a result the plan may contain policies specifying where new housing is appropriate and whether garden development is supported or not and what criteria might be considered in looking at planning proposals. In addition look for any advice on line at supplementary planning documents or planning guidance that your local council Planning Department has produced around subjects such as space around dwellings, overlooking etc and how new developments relate to existing houses. Clearly this is not a big site. Many authorities will also have a space requirement for outside garden space. With only 49 sq metres to go out there isn't going to be very much and you may be required to have off street parking too.

I would contact the planning department for an informal chat to make sure there is a prospect of getting permission before buying the site.

RE: Re: Static caravan in garden

2015-08-15T02:26:51Z

Hello, all

I wanted some advice on building a small home on a bit of land (someone wants to sell their garden, not attached to their home and has shared access to the street). The garden backs up to an open car park and there are neighbors to both sides. The garden is small as it measure 7.5 meters by 7 meters. I am not sure if I would get planning permission for building a small home, suitable for 2 people. Would I need planning permission as I have been looking at flat-pack homes, micro homes, container homes, etc.? Thank you kindly,

Daniel

RE: Re: Static caravan in garden

2015-07-12T23:14:26Z

hello again. I have another qu

estion about planning permission regarding siting caravans. As I said above there is PP for a holiday caravan on the land ...but I am unclear as to the situation re any necessary groundworks to site the caravan (it is quite sloping and some levelling and/or hardcore/foundations may be needed.

the land has an Article 4 direction on it (but not aware of any permitted development even without the Article 4 as not a house or farm etc) but not sure if I'd need further PP for any works even if minor. (all works would be hidden under area of caravan) Thanks

RE: Re: Static caravan in garden

2014-11-25T06:09:11Z

Michael-Many thanks for your reply. I hoped that was the case, but is fantastic to hear that it is so. Thanks again.

RE: Re: Static caravan in garden

2014-11-24T10:16:08Z

Hi Katie. Provided that there was no condition on the original planning permission stating that only that specific caravan could be sited on the land, and provided that the new caravan (and it has to be a caravan as defined in the 1960/1968 Caravan Sites Acts) is within the red line on the approved planning permission plan, you should not need to apply for permission again. MIke Hyde, MH Planning Associates.

RE: Re: Static caravan in garden

2014-11-22T19:19:38Z

Hi. I have a similar question ai hope is ok to ask here. ...I have PP for a holiday caravan on land I own (not in a garden of a domestic house I know), but I want to replace the static with something more modern, and water-tight; and quite a bit bigger than the existing static. Would I need to get additional PP to do this? And secondly would the replacement caravan have to be located in same area of land as existing? I know I should speak to the LPA but unfortunately I haven't found them very "approachable" so wanted some advice before having to go down that route. Hope someone here may be able to advise or point me in the right direction. Many thanks.

RE: Re: Static caravan in garden

2014-11-10T17:12:07Z

Chris Weetman:

Julie just came across this from the excellent planning lawyer Martin Goodall from 2011 see the third bottom paragraph:

Friday, 27 May 2011

Another curtilage query

If you have found this post by searching for “curtilage” on the internet, you may like to know that there has been a total of 7 posts on this topic in this blog – on 25 January 2011, 27 May 2011, 12 August 2011, 18 August 2011, 6 December 2011, 19 December 2011 and 2 January 2012. If you wish to display them all on the page together, just put “curtilage” into the search box at the top left-hand corner of this page (but NOT in the ‘Google’ or ‘Jeeves’ box above that).

As you will see from the note on the top bar entitled “Getting in touch”, you cannot communicate with me personally by posting a comment on a specific item in the blog, because I will have no means of knowing what your email address is, even if you include it when posting your comment. The only way of establishing contact is for you to send a separate email direct to me. Of course, I cannot give detailed advice without formal instructions, and that advice will have to be paid for on the usual professional basis, but I do respond politely to bona fide emails, even if only briefly.

An anonymous reader recently tried to seek my advice by leaving a comment on a piece I wrote a short time ago on “curtilage confusion”. It was clear from that query that the confusion continues, so I will try to explain the point again.

Without going into the precise facts of the case which was put to me, the questioner was concerned about threatened enforcement action in respect of the stationing of a ‘mobile home’ on their property which is in fact used solely for storage in connection with domestic stables on the property accommodating the owners’ own recreational horses. Both the planning officer and the questioner seem to be exercised over the question as to whether the stables, and the area immediately next to the stables where the mobile home is stationed, are or are not within the domestic curtilage of the house.

This, with due respect to all concerned, is irrelevant. In fact, in the case in question, it does not really matter whether the stables are within the same planning unit as the house, although from the details provided it appears that they are, being part of an 11-acre site, comprising the house, gardens and other land, stables, other outbuildings and hardstandings (etc.)

Even if the stables were not part of the same planning unit as the house, the stationing of the mobile home on the same planning unit as the stables purely for storage purposes in connection with the use of the stables would not amount to a material change of use of the land on which the mobile home is stationed. It is obvious that this is a purely ancillary use in connection with the use of the stables. There is clear authority for this proposition. The case I have in mind is Wealden DC -v- SSE ([1988] JPL 268). That case was concerned with storage for agricultural purposes, but the principle holds good for ancillary storage for any purpose. On the other hand, if the stables are not within the same planning unit as the house, and the mobile home were to be used as residential accommodation, then that would amount to a material change of use in respect of that (non-domestic) planning unit.

In the present case I think we can assume that the mobile home is stationed within the same planning unit as the house. If a mobile home or caravan is stationed anywhere within a planning unit comprising a single private dwellinghouse and the land enjoyed with it for domestic purposes, it can be used for any ancillary (and not merely ‘incidental’) purpose in connection with the residential use of that planning unit, e.g. to provide additional bedroom space or other accommodation, provided that this did not amount to use as a separate dwelling.

This is a point which planning officers just don’t seem to be able to get their heads around. The use of any existing buildings and the use of any part of the land occupied together with a single private dwellinghouse for any purpose which forms part of the domestic use of that planning unit within Use Class C3 is perfectly lawful, irrespective of whether the particular part of the planning unit in question falls within the more narrowly defined ‘curtilage’ of the house. Defining the curtilage is only relevant to deciding whether or not the permitted development rights granted by Part 1 of the Second Schedule to the GPDO allow the erection of a new outbuilding or extension in that precise location.

If the questioner recognises their property from the description given above and would like my further professional help on the matter, perhaps they would care to email me. It may take a reasonably firm letter from me to the planning officer to resolve the matter, but I am in no doubt that we can see the planning officer off in this case in fairly short order.

© MARTIN H GOODALL

This backs Mike and my views up

Thanks Chris

RE: Re: Static caravan in garden

2014-11-10T16:54:40Z

Julie just came across this from the excellent planning lawyer Martin Goodall from 2011 see the third bottom paragraph:

Friday, 27 May 2011

Another curtilage query

This backs Mike and my views up

RE: Re: Static caravan in garden

2014-11-06T21:25:10Z

Michael Hyde:

Julie

The LPA have got it hopelessly wrong, but this is not the first time I've come across exactly the same bad advice. Starting from first principles, development takes place when either operations (building, engineering, mining or other), or a material change of use takes place. The SITING of a CARAVAN is not operational development and so the provisions of the Permitted Development Order relating to the erection of incidental buildings is simply not relevant. This is where the difference between incidental (storage, studio, sunroom) and ancilliary (part of the primary use, so including bedrooms) becomes critical, you can erect an incidental building as permitted development but not an ancilliary one! The only question to be answered in your case is however whether a MATERIAL change of use will take place. A change of use will not be material provided that the use of the caravan remains ancillary to the primary residential use. The fact that the caravan COULD be used as independent accommodation is equally not relevant, it is how it is proposed to be used that will form the basis of a Lawful Development Certificate application. As an example a client I recently helped had had permission for a domestic outbuilding refused because his dwelling was in the Greenbelt. Rather than appeal the refusal, with little chance of success, I submitted a LDC for a caravan. It was approved within 3 weeks, no questions were asked. He now has all the additional accommodation that he needs (in this case his mum was going to occupy the caravan and him, his wife and new baby the house).

Regards

Mike

Dear Mike

thank you once again for your advice.

Julie

RE: Re: Static caravan in garden

2014-11-06T19:04:47Z

Julie

The LPA have got it hopelessly wrong, but this is not the first time I've come across exactly the same bad advice. Starting from first principles, development takes place when either operations (building, engineering, mining or other), or a material change of use takes place. The SITING of a CARAVAN is not operational development and so the provisions of the Permitted Development Order relating to the erection of incidental buildings is simply not relevant. This is where the difference between incidental (storage, studio, sunroom) and ancilliary (part of the primary use, so including bedrooms) becomes critical, you can erect an incidental building as permitted development but not an ancilliary one! The only question to be answered in your case is however whether a MATERIAL change of use will take place. A change of use will not be material provided that the use of the caravan remains ancillary to the primary residential use. The fact that the caravan COULD be used as independent accommodation is equally not relevant, it is how it is proposed to be used that will form the basis of a Lawful Development Certificate application. As an example a client I recently helped had had permission for a domestic outbuilding refused because his dwelling was in the Greenbelt. Rather than appeal the refusal, with little chance of success, I submitted a LDC for a caravan. It was approved within 3 weeks, no questions were asked. He now has all the additional accommodation that he needs (in this case his mum was going to occupy the caravan and him, his wife and new baby the house).

Regards

Mike

RE: Re: Static caravan in garden

2014-11-06T18:37:30Z

julie smith:

Chris Weetman:

Wow this unspecified LPA is going to charge you £££££s for non binding planning advice which is wrong in law..........! I`m with Mike, if its ancillary living accommodation as in its not a functional separate planning unit then you do nt need pp. Its down to fact and degree. If a family was to move in and live independently that is a different matter. if i was you I would hire MIke to take them on, after all he can produce examples from elsewhere to challenge the LPA.

Thanks Chris, looks like I will have a fight on my hands

Just had another look at caravan site act 1960 and it does say incidental and not ancillary to main dwelling.

Also found these defernitions of the 2 words, so looks like bedrooms may not be covered by this act.

Planning Definition

There is so much case law examining ancillary/incidental it is difficult to briefly summarise – but it is along the lines of:

Ancillary (needs planning permission) = generally anything you (as a person ) could do normally in a standard house as built; e.g. eat, sleep, sit comfortably, pray, study, watch tv, shower.

Incidental (permitted development) = generally everything else. Including storage, swimming, bowling, gym, art studio, or something that can be classed as a hobby. An incidental use is “parasitic” on the primary use- it cannot exist without it. Also ancillary use can be incorporated as long as it’s subordinate to the incidental, i.e. shower room for gym or small bar area- these are seen to not materially extend the normal living accommodation at the property.

Given that Permitted Development rights are supposed to make life easier, the confusion over what you can and can’t do in outbuildings is horrible messy.

Before you embark on your outbuilding development we strongly recommend you make absolutely sure you don’t need planning permission.

RE: Re: Static caravan in garden

2014-11-06T17:57:08Z

Chris Weetman:

Wow this unspecified LPA is going to charge you £££££s for non binding planning advice which is wrong in law..........! I`m with Mike, if its ancillary living accommodation as in its not a functional separate planning unit then you do nt need pp. Its down to fact and degree. If a family was to move in and live independently that is a different matter. if i was you I would hire MIke to take them on, after all he can produce examples from elsewhere to challenge the LPA.

Thanks Chris, looks like I will have a fight on my hands

RE: Re: Static caravan in garden

2014-11-06T17:50:02Z

Wow this unspecified LPA is going to charge you £££££s for non binding planning advice which is wrong in law..........! I`m with Mike, if its ancillary living accommodation as in its not a functional separate planning unit then you do nt need pp. Its down to fact and degree. If a family was to move in and live independently that is a different matter. if i was you I would hire MIke to take them on, after all he can produce examples from elsewhere to challenge the LPA.

RE: Re: Static caravan in garden

2014-11-06T17:32:48Z

this is the reply from the council. If i go for a certificate of lawful development it shouldn't be as an out building should it? It also says that you can't sleep in it which is also incorrect isn't it?

As advised by my colleagues on 19th September, if you would like anything in writing relating specifically to your property a pre application enquiry form along with a fee of £144 would be required for written advice. I can however, as discussed on the 14th October provide general advise, not relating to your property, as to whether mobile homes are considered to be permitted development or not.

Please appreciate these views represent the opinion of an individual officer and do not necessarily reflect the view that might be taken by the Council itself. Consequently any opinion expressed will not bind the Council.

Mobile homes that are to be used as separate self-contained residential units would be subject to the grant of planning permission. In order for the mobile home to be classed as a self-contained unit, the mobile home would be used as habitable accommodation, and/or would have its own bathroom facilities and cooking facilities. If the proposed mobile home would be ancillary and incidental to the use of the main dwelling, in as much as it would not be used for overnight sleeping, and would not have its own cooking and bathroom facilities, then the proposal may fall within the permitted development rights of an outbuilding.

You have indicated that the mobile home would be used for ‘additional bedrooms’ which would be classed as habitable accommodation, being used for overnight sleeping purposes. As such, this use would not be incidental to the use dwellinghouse and would require planning permission.

.If after considering the above information you consider that the application is permitted development (would meet with the requirements of the permitted outbuilding and would be incidental and ancillary to the use of the dwellinghouse), you can apply for a certificate of lawfulness (LDP application). If the Council consider that the proposed building is lawful, a legally binding certificate will be issued to this effect.

RE: Re: Static caravan in garden

2014-10-27T19:57:54Z

Thanks Michael